It's not so much a trinitarian thing as an alternate understanding. After the fall of man, the Father, El Elyon, could no longer deal with man in his sinful condition. He chose his Son, Yahweh, in the beginning, to be the mediator between God (meaning the Father) and Adam (Man). Yahweh was the Son, the Messiah, Redeemer, the stone and God of Israel, Jehovah. He was the God of Abraham and Isaac, the one who called and spoke to Moses, who led the children of Israel from Egypt into the land of Canaan. Then, in the meridian of time, he was born into mortality and raised as Jesus, suffering and dying for mankind. At the end of the Millennium, he will present the Earth, sanctified and redeemed, back into the hand of the Father. It doesn't require the Father and the Son to be the same entity. They are ONE in the same sense that the apostles were to be ONE.
If one reads the NT, frequently the writers make a distinction between God and Jesus. They can indeed make a case that Jesus is not part of God. Even so, the apostle John seems to close the gap on that, especially in Revelation. In his writings, Jesus sits down with the Father on His throne, as we sit down with Jesus on His throne (which is the Father's throne). Thus, we become like Jesus and Jesus becomes like the Father and we, Jesus and the Father all become ONE. Since Yahweh is called God in the scriptures, and is later identified as Christ, we can conclude that Jesus (Yahweh) is a different being associated with God.
Cold Steel
JoinedPosts by Cold Steel
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Jehovah or Jesus: Who Is To Come?
by Cold Steel inone thing i've never understood about jw eschatology is how it views armageddon and the end times.
the leaders and writers have evolved in their understanding of what's supposed to happen in the timeline.
below are bible scriptures relating to biblical armageddon.
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Jehovah or Jesus: Who Is To Come?
by Cold Steel inone thing i've never understood about jw eschatology is how it views armageddon and the end times.
the leaders and writers have evolved in their understanding of what's supposed to happen in the timeline.
below are bible scriptures relating to biblical armageddon.
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Cold Steel
One thing I've never understood about JW eschatology is how it views Armageddon and the end times. The leaders and writers have evolved in their understanding of what's supposed to happen in the timeline. Below are Bible scriptures relating to biblical Armageddon. As most scholars read them, they don't point to a global destruction at all, but to a war between good and evil based in the Middle East. For example, all the prophets have agreed on various points.
- Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem. And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it. (Zechariah 12:2-3)
- After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them. Thou shalt ascend and come like a storm, thou shalt be like a cloud to cover the land, thou, and all thy bands, and many people with thee. Thus saith the Lord God; It shall also come to pass...thou shalt think an evil thought: And thou shalt say, I will go up to the land of unwalled villages; I will go to them that are at rest, that dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates, to take a spoil, and to take a prey; to turn thine hand upon the desolate places that are now inhabited, and upon the people that are gathered out of the nations, which have gotten cattle and goods, that dwell in the midst of the land. (Ezekiel 38:8-12)
- And thou shalt come up against my people of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the latter days, and I will bring thee against my land, that the heathen may know me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes. (Ezekiel38:16)
- In that day shall the Lord defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the Lord before them. And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. (Zechariah 12:8-9)
- And it shall come to pass at the same time when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord God, that my fury shall come up in my face. For in my jealousy and in the fire of my wrath have I spoken, surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel ... [and] every man's sword shall be against his brother. And I will plead against [Gog] with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone. (Zechariah 12:19-22)
- Thou shalt fall upon the mountains of Israel, thou, and all thy bands, and the people that is with thee: I will give thee unto the ravenous birds of every sort, and to the beasts of the field to be devoured. Thou shalt fall upon the open field: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord God. (Ezekiel 39:4-5)
- For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. (Zechariah 14:12)
It's clear that these two prophets are speaking of the same event. Both are in the latter days, both concern massive military operations against Judah and Jerusalem, and in both cases the Lord comes out of his hiding place to destroy Judah's enemies and saves them. So why did the Lord let Judah fall to the Romans? Why did he let them be dispersed throughout the nations? Why did he let them suffer at the hands of the Spanish Inquisition, the Italians, Nazis and other nations?
The Lord explained it to Ezekiel:
...the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword. According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them. Therefore...now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name; after they have borne their shame and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid. (Ezekiel 39:23-26)
This is the battle of Armageddon. I'm not sure how the WTBTS came to its present understanding of this great event, but I've never spoken to even one JW who has studied what Armageddon is supposed to be from a biblical standpoint, or where it's supposed to be and how it's supposed to end. They know what the Watchtower says, but nothing about what the Bible states.But what is even more confusing to me is: who is it who is supposed to come during the battle? The sectarians call it "the Second Coming" (and by this is meant the Christ), but Zechariah says that it's Jehovah. Zechariah also writes:
And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon. (Zechariah 12:9-12)
Although the text says "they shall look upon ME whom they have pierced," the text says "they have looked unto Me whom they pierced." Either way, the one who comes is Christ. This is especially significant to those who believe that Jesus and Jehovah are the same.But who is it that the JWs believe is coming?
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Forgiveness Yesterday, Today and Forever
by Cold Steel ini was just watching the jw broadcasting network and the topic being discussed was forgiveness.
the fellow presenting the topic was talking a brother who had sinned many years ago.
he finally came clean with the local elders, accepted his discipline and got on with his life.
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Cold Steel
So basically a person should keep his or her mouth shut if he or she sins? Is there any sort of a statute of limitations on sins? And how does one know when one needs to see the elders or just to repent? I'm not aware of any New Testament scriptures that codify what needs to be reported to the elders and what doesn't. There are some really serious sins out there -- things like dating sheep, attending other church services, murder, reading materials critical of the Society, rape, questioning the Governing Body, human sacrifice, receiving blood transfusions -- those types of horrible things.
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Forgiveness Yesterday, Today and Forever
by Cold Steel ini was just watching the jw broadcasting network and the topic being discussed was forgiveness.
the fellow presenting the topic was talking a brother who had sinned many years ago.
he finally came clean with the local elders, accepted his discipline and got on with his life.
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Cold Steel
I was just watching the JW Broadcasting Network and the topic being discussed was forgiveness.
The fellow presenting the topic was talking a brother who had sinned many years ago. He finally came clean with the local elders, accepted his discipline and got on with his life. I was curious as to what sort of discipline he might be talking about. He said it had been many years ago and I wondered why the Society would take any action against someone years after an offense?
Are we talking Murder? Adultery? Fornication? How would the Society handle someone who confessed to a murder? Doesn't it have to report it according to the law? And how would they discipline someone after years?
But those are only peripheral questions. My real question is this: What if someone simply comes back to the Society, goes back to the Kingdom Hall, becomes active again all without confessing his our her previous transgressions? Would "Jehovah" really condemn that person?
And speaking of murder, does the Society baptize murderers?
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Two Jehovah's Witnesses congregations abolished by courts - Russia
by OrphanCrow intwo jehovah's witnesses congregations abolished by courts.
today, 11 february 2016, an administrative lawsuit by the prosecutor of belgorod province for finding the local religious organization of jehovah's witnesses in the city of belgorod to be extremist and liquidated was granted by decision of the belgorod provincial court.
yesterday the provincial court issued a decision on the administrative lawsuit of the provincial prosecutor for liquidation of the local religious organizations of jehovah's witnesses in the city of stary oskol.. the above quote is from one of 5 articles at link.. the fourth article, doctors in court: "jehovah's witnesses died after refusing blood transfusions", gives a synopsis of the hearing in the belgorod provincial court on feb 8.. two doctors were summoned into court as witnesses in order to learn whether religious convictions have affected the state of health of jehovist patients and whether they could be the cause of the death of patients.
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Cold Steel
Obviously these two congregations are the two prophets, or witnesses, of Revelation 11. After three symbolic "days" (years) they will be reconstituted and then Jehovah will take them up unto himself.
Not only that, the announcement was made on February 11. February is the second month of the year. And it was made on the 11th day. The two witnesses were prophesied in Revelation, in the 11th chapter!!!!!! Not only that, but add 1 + 1 and you get 2, two prophets.
I don't know about you, but I have goose bumps. I mean, do you have to have a house fall on you??
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feeling blue about loss of faith?Grimly holding on in the face of your mortality?Dust that sings
by Diogenesister inas i am aware a lot of posters are feeling down or grieving the certainties lost when their faith is revealed as nothing but the stories of mortal men...i am posting one of my favourite youtubers, philhellenes who, like the ancients you studied, contemplates that sense of awe that he is indeed fearfully and wonderfully made...and when faced with the inevitability of mortality he imagines the plight of the mayfly...and wonders" would it be cruel to tell an adult mayfly that it only has that afternoon to live...would it still fly as far and as high as it could?might it fly further and higher than usual?or would it forget about it's wings and sit on the water, head bowed, sufficiently traumatised to invent religion?".
we are privileged that after millennia we are some of the first life forms to know exactly how we came to be..and what we are made of ...and if that isnt miraculously awe inspiring,i don't know what is.
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Cold Steel
Yes, but why don't they even claim to be a church? Jesus gave Peter the Keys of the Kingdom and said that what he bound on Earth would be bound in Heaven and vice versa. That's why baptism works and excommunication was considered as a major threat to one's salvation. If the GB doesn't have these keys, who cares what they do? If you're disfellowshiped, big deal. No keys, no authority! YAWEH won't recognize anything the Society does if there are no keys. And if the Society has those keys, where did it get them? How were they conferred and by whom? If it doesn't need them, then why did the ancient church need them? It's something that I've never seen addressed. People say, if poor Uncle Ebert isn't reinstated, Jehovah will destroy him at Armageddon! But even if Ebert dies, Jehovah will resurrect him, then destroy him. Why? Because he was cut off by the Society. Or do I have it wrong?
The Society definitely has its own keys. It can turn family against family, friends against friends. It can prevent marriages, control what one reads, what one believes, says and even the medical attention one receives. It has destroyed careers by its poor counsel, misled people about prophecy, corrupted marriages and has come between parents and their children. These are all keys of its own making, all made of tin and all self assumed. Otherwise, if it had the Keys given to Peter and the Twelve, they owe it to everyone to explain how they got them. And if they don't, they should explain why they don't need them.
It would be great if someone who's been active in the Society could tell me why the Society would be hesitant to classify itself as a church? If it isn't the church that Jesus built, just exactly what is it? Does it consider itself the Kingdom of God as in "thy Kingdom come...."?
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feeling blue about loss of faith?Grimly holding on in the face of your mortality?Dust that sings
by Diogenesister inas i am aware a lot of posters are feeling down or grieving the certainties lost when their faith is revealed as nothing but the stories of mortal men...i am posting one of my favourite youtubers, philhellenes who, like the ancients you studied, contemplates that sense of awe that he is indeed fearfully and wonderfully made...and when faced with the inevitability of mortality he imagines the plight of the mayfly...and wonders" would it be cruel to tell an adult mayfly that it only has that afternoon to live...would it still fly as far and as high as it could?might it fly further and higher than usual?or would it forget about it's wings and sit on the water, head bowed, sufficiently traumatised to invent religion?".
we are privileged that after millennia we are some of the first life forms to know exactly how we came to be..and what we are made of ...and if that isnt miraculously awe inspiring,i don't know what is.
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Cold Steel
But if offers nothing. And just because one religion is a fraud doesn't mean that all are. The WTBTS villifies other Christian sects, so when people leave it they have nowhere else to go. That's why many become atheists and bitter towards all religion. No matter which belief system one follows, he or she can fall victim to cognitive dissonance, because atheism has as many problems as any other "ism".
That the WTBTS is a manmade church is self apparent. It's not even a church, which is strange because Jesus said, "upon this rock I will build my church." Jesus is the rock, the very stone of Israel. But the GB says very clearly that it's not a church (in fact, you can be excommunicated for even attending a church service). So if it's not a church, it isn't of God. So why does it baptize? And why does it take your money if it isn't divinely established?
Some people, I think, hold God responsible for the WTBTS being a false religion when they need to examine its claims a bit more.
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THE END is no longer...
by Martini in...at the tip of my tongue!.
question:.
i know we are not into end time dates anymore.however suppose you are in your.
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Cold Steel
...now they are emphasising Jesus' words that "no one knows except [the] Father."
Yes, except that was said two thousand years ago. I suspect the Son now knows when it will be. Amos said that surely the Lord would do nothing save he revealed his secrets to his servants the prophets. (Amos 3:7)
We know that the Lord will raise up two prophets who will minister to the Jews for three years. After that, Gog will overcome the prophets and kill them. Their bodies would lie on the streets of Jerusalem for three and a half days. Then they will resurrect in view of their enemies and ascend into heaven to meet the returning Jehovah, or Christ. Thus anyone who knows prophecy and can count will be able to know the time of the Lord's coming. The two prophets may also know (especially if they can count).
So if there are prophets on the earth, they are likely to be privy to the Lord's secrets. If the GB are prophets, then they will know. So far, though, that seems to be a long shot.
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THE END is no longer...
by Martini in...at the tip of my tongue!.
question:.
i know we are not into end time dates anymore.however suppose you are in your.
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Cold Steel
...I simply say we do not know when the end will come....
By George, I think she has it!
Really, it ruined William Miller and left him totally discredited. It also damaged Ellen G. White and caused the collapse of many other adventist sects. The Lord left clues in the scriptures as a way to tell the seasons, but the Governing Body has unfortunately negated almost all of them. These include the dispersion of Judah following the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple, the apostasy of the ancient church, its being driven into the wilderness for 1260 years, the reestablishment of Israel by Judah, the building of the third temple, the rise of the Antichrist (Gog), the appearance of two prophets who will stand against him, their destruction and resurrection, and then the return of Jehovah/Jesus to the Mount of Olives. (See Zechariah 12-14, Ezekiel 38-39, Revelation 12, 14) As one sees these things begin to happen in the Middle East, one can see these events begin to come together; however, if you mislead the people into thinking unrelated events in the United States are fulfillments, then it's a classic case of the blind leading the blind.
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Just handed in my Disassociation letter
by Thirteenth tribe intonight my dl was posted by hand by my husband (a worldly guy).
i had the luxury of being at work distracted whilst he posted it.
i have been baptised for just over 2 years and studied since 2010. i couldn't take it anymore, not just the zealous dislike/disgust for 'people in the world' (this includes my husband and 99% of my family btw) but the obvious.... the investigations into child sexual abuse.
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Cold Steel
You said you were baptized two years ago. How did you get into this outfit and when did you first begin thinking it was a bit off?
When people begin making inane comments about the worldly being killed in Armageddon, what happens if someone disagrees and points out, rightly so, that there are many good, decent, honorable people in the world and that Jehovah will likely spare many when he returns? Can you get in trouble for a minor difference with the herd? John states, "For the Father judges no man, but has committed all judgement to the Son." (John 5:22) So the Father isn't going to judge nations or people at all. It will be Jesus Christ. (I've never known how the JWs view the "Second Coming." The Old Testament says Jehovah will come in the clouds, but the New Testament says it will be Jesus. Will both the Father and Son come, or will just one of them?) No one else should attempt to judge their fellow man unless they died for the sins of mankind.